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December 09, 2007

Comments

Chirol

One thing you'll find as a student of the German language is that as you begin to immerse yourself in modern German culture and politics, there's a certain individual whose legacy you won't be able to escape no matter how hard you try. I am speaking, of course, of Adolf Hitler,

That is actually the one thing Americans find. The rest of the Europe which has a far broader range of experiences with the Germans isn't so fixated on WWII.

Abiola

Können sie Deutsch sprechen? I can, and when I talk about Hitler's shadow, I am thinking particularly about the German media, which is surely as European as it gets - read the FAZ, Die Zeit, Der Spiegel, Sueddeutsche Zeitung, etc., regularly enough, and you'll find that hardly a day goes by when Hitler's name won't come up in one of them, while German publications know equally well what their British counterparts (as well as the Hitler channel) do - that there's nothing to guarantee a circulation boost like putting Hitler on the cover of a publication.

Finally, I actually do live in Europe, so I think I might know a thing or two about what Europeans think about their neighbour ...

Chirol

Ich wohne seit ueber 4 Jahren in Deutschland und habe deutsch studiert =) Habe auch in Daenemark gewohnt sowie alle Westeuropaische Laender besucht =) Thus I also know a thing or two.

Your reply doesn't actually address what I said. Your intro mentions that students of German can't escape Hitler and his legacy. While it is no doubt still an issue here the German news is filled with other things just as regularly like global warming, social conditions and how evil the US is. It's not a top concern anymore. I've been reading German news in German for years and still think it is Americans who are far more obsessed with Hitler and WWII and are almost always the ones who bring it up.

Abiola

"Your reply doesn't actually address what I said."

I don't agree. Hitler looms over a heck of a lot in modern German politics, from Germany's current testy relations with Poland (thanks in part to the politically influential Bund der Vertriebenen), to the German establishment's insistence on keeping conscription, to German attitudes towards smoking (decried in the Third Reich, so left uncriticized in the Bundesrepublik), to the fact that GSG-9 is a unit of the police (fears of a new Waffen SS), to the prohibition on singing certain songs (Horst Wessel Lied) or brandishing certain emblems (Swastika) in public, to the Bundesverfassungsgericht's obsession with "cults" in general and the Church of Scientology in particular, to the recent controversy over Eva Herman's remarks, usw. To say that "it's not a top concern anymore" is about as far off the mark as it is possible to get.

"I've been reading German news in German for years and still think it is Americans who are far more obsessed with Hitler and WWII and are almost always the ones who bring it up."

1. I didn't say anything about whether Americans are "more obsessed" with Hitler or not; I said he looms large over modern German culture and politics, which he does.

2. Americans may be more likely to use the "You're just like Hitler!" rhetoric, but Germans manage to relentlessly flog films, magazine issues, art shows, etc. about the man without any external help. Do a quick search on "Hitler" for news.google.de and tell me that he's really yesterday's news.

Chirol

Your first example has nothing to do with Hitler and everything to do with the expulsion of Germans from their homeland in Prussia and elsewhere. Poland has an entire complex of its own being eaten up and spit back out over hte years by Germany and Russia. WWII is just the example most people remember. It's also a populist theme Polish politicians use at home and abroad to maximize gains from German shame.

re the GSG9, I dont know who've you been talking to but it's not even remotely related to the Waffen SS and no German who's had basic history would make such a ridiculous statement. The closest thing you'd have is perhaps the Verfassungsschutz which I do hear complains about but rather that they are anti-democratic and not anything about Hitler.

Ss for smoking, elaborate because I'm not sure what you mean. Lucikily Germans still love their cigarettes even as the US and EU crack down on it.

As for Verfassungsfeindliche Symbole, remember that it is ONLY illegal to display the Hackenkreuz and SS symbol for political reasons. You are free to buy, sell and trade Nazi items or show them in any historical or educational context. Is it a silly law? Yes, but it stems more from the German overcautiousness about protecting democracy.

Your argument concentrates far too much on one man. The idea that a modern and developed country like Germany could be taken over by fascists is what scares people. Hitler is secondary in that sense. In addition, like Turkey for example, Germany doesn't have much historical experience with democracy which is why it is a bit overprotective.

Hitler is by far not a top concern anymore and its silly to think so. Germany would be more than happy to forgo any further discussion of him or the war as they are and have been ready to move on.

Where do you live now if I may ask and have you ever lived in Germany? And for how long?

ExpatJane

Why am I wandering into this silly spat? Chirol, you seem to be missing the point that's being made.

He never said it was a "top" concern. You did. What he said was that Hilter is still very much mentioned in the press on a frequent basis. All that it would take to verify this is a LexisNexis search for terms used in German newspapers.

He didn't compare the German's focus on Hilter to America's focus on him. Again, you did.

You don't have to live in Germany to read the German news. You're not the only German language student in existence. Honestly, after the month I spent in Berlin you'd have to pay me to go back to that city or, at least, to go back to the unpleasant section that I was in, Prenzlauer Berg.

With the neo-Nazis and other hooligans running around the former East Germany now beating up foreigners, you might want to roll back your comments regarding fascists. Are you trying to say that Hitler isn't a source of inspiration for them? http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=871

Over and out!

BTW, good post Abiola.

Abiola

Expatjane,

Thanks for putting it so well: you hit the nail right on the head.

Chirol,

Resorting to "who's lived where longest?" is a pathetic excuse for an argument, as is simply ignoring evidence contradicting your thesis and resorting to pompous ad hominems like "silly": what is truly silly - no, outright inane - is trying to make the preposterous argument that a man who was responsible for the slaughter of 60 million Europeans, the imposition of communism on all of Eastern Europe, the division of Germany for 45 years, and the loss of nearly all of what used to be called Prussia, is someone whose legacy the Germans could possibly get over to the degree you insist. One might think "Vergangenheitsbewaltigung" wasn't a German word to read your strange statements ...

Chirol

I hate to tell you but hiding behind a response straight out of a thesaurus is that you brought up the subject of experience in your first reponse

"Finally, I actually do live in Europe, so I think I might know a thing or two about what Europeans think about their neighbour ..."

I was merely responding and asking for more details. But hey, if it makes you feel better to ignore that, I understand.

As for Hitler, my point is that English speaking countries are far more concentrated on him than Germans. I never said his legacy isn't present in Germany today, but that outsiders tend to misinterpret and overestimate it whereas Germans are interested in other aspects of WWII, as I mentioned.

Abiola

"I hate to tell you but hiding behind a response straight out of a thesaurus is that you brought up the subject of experience in your first reponse"

No, YOU tried to insinuate that I couldn't know what I was talking about without offering any reason whatsoever beyond bald assertion for such a belief.

"But hey, if it makes you feel better to ignore that, I understand."

What makes me feel better is not having to deal with people who try to pass off non-sequiturs and ad hominems as actual arguments ...

"I never said his legacy isn't present in Germany today, but that outsiders tend to misinterpret and overestimate it whereas Germans are interested in other aspects of WWII, as I mentioned."

You know what, it would seem that even this assertion of yours - which corresponds to no claim I ever made in my post - doesn't seem supported by the facts.

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/123083.html

["Rather more disturbing is this tidbit from the Sydney Morning Herald's story on search trends, which notes that "Germany, Mexico (?) and Austria were the world's top three searchers of the word 'Hitler.'"]

Or just look at the following directly.

http://www.google.com/trends?q=hitler

German language searches come first on that list, with English-language searches all the way down at number 8. The entirety of your argument is without foundation, so save the patronizing humbug for someone else.

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