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February 19, 2006

Comments

bimsherman

[Blogroach splatted for cheering on Islamic murderers]

Abiola

It's thanks to vermin like you that Islam is seen for the murderous creed that it truly is.

Guy

"Maybe they'd also like to explain why it's never the Christians who go on lynching and rioting expeditions whenever Muslims carry out "humiliations" like mass murder in the Sudan ..."

Sorry, and as much as I regret the recent killings, in the case of Nigeria that is exactly what may have happened before:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1-1100279,00.html

Abiola

Snort. Maybe you ought to try carefully reading the stories you post? From your very own link comes the following:

["Although motives for the attack were unclear, it happened a week after Hausa-speaking Muslims reportedly launched an assault on the Tarok village of Kawo, burning churches and inflicting an unknown number of casualties.

In February suspected Muslim Hausa militants armed with guns and bows and arrows killed at least 48 people in a church in Yelwa, driving most other Christians out of the town."]

If you can't tell the difference between people retaliating against previous violence done to them by taking the fight to their aggressors and people setting upon their local Christian neighbors because of *cartoons*, and cartoons drawn in faraway *Denmark*, of all places, then your comments aren't worth much of anything at all. Show me a *single* example of Nigerian Christians attacking Muslims because of something *another* country's Muslims have done elsewhere - let alone something as trivial as drawing a cartoon or writing a novel about Jesus - and *then* we can start talking.

Guy

I suppose you know who or what started the chain of retaliations?

Guy

Okay, I missed the addendum to your previous comment. No, Nigerian Christians haven't attacked Nigerian Muslim because of something that happened abroad. And no, I do not particularly like Islam and no I do not feel inclined to play the role of apologist. The only thing I do know is that the situation in Nigeria is very complex and that the cartoons may have been used only as an excuse to settle old scores.

see here too: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/nigeria-1.htm

I also know very well that my comments aren't worth anything. But the linked story could have provided some additional background explaining why the Nigerian Muslims seized on the cartoons to carry out their sickening killings of Christians.

In any case, I'll debate the issue on my own and no doubt very worthless blog. Sorry for having intruded.

dsquared

Got a source for that poll? The fact that whoever wrote that news story felt it necessary to add "sharia law includes stonings and mutilations" to explain what sharia law was, suggests strongly to me that this wasn't in the actual question and that a game of bait-and-switch is being played here.

dsquared

ahhh I've now found the Telegraph story. I am further convinced that there was something funny about the questions asked in that poll; it finds only 1 per cent of Muslims thinking that the 7/7 bombers were "right" when almost every other poll has found much higher levels of support.

Ripp

I don't think that the latest fiasco in Nigeria is really about Islam. I suspect that all of the Christian businesses and churches targeted were predominantly Igbo. Igbos are viewed as foreigners in Hausaland, and I'm sure that there are plenty of Hausa who resent their more prosperous and sucessful Igbo neighbors. Islam is only a convenient pretext to destroy a perceived enemy. Even if all of the Igbos there were fervent Muslims, I'm sure another excuse to destroy could be produced...

I think a better way to understand the situation is as an example of the standard sucessful minority hatred issues that abound in the world (cf. Jews in the US and Europe, ethnic Chinese in the Phillipines, etc.)

Abiola, Islam itself isn't the problem. People use it (and religion in general) as a justification to do evil, or for politicial and other reasons. In our own Yorubaland, at least as far as I know, Christians and Muslims cohabitate peacefully...One might imagine that this would be the case globally if religon weren't used for secondary reasons.

Chuckles

Clap, Clap, Clap. I have to hand DSquared the prize on this one. When Abiola started manifesting rabid Danophilia by raising cain over Northern Muslim MPs burning the Danish flag; only the seers amongst us could have realized that such a display of hate populism by State agents could lead to no wider ranging consequences - say, as in Nazi Germany. Boy! We sure had our referents wrong on that one!

Now for some comments:

[...The only thing I do know is that the situation in Nigeria is very complex and that the cartoons may have been used only as an excuse to settle old scores...]

Rubbish. What "old scores" other than the virulent Islamic hatred for everything not Islamic? This is *not* a complex issue. The situation in Nigeria is *not* complex, in so far as this is concerned. The history of Islamic violence is clear, persistent, and consistent with regards to its narrative impulses. This is par for the course - This is everyday life in the realms where the "Caliphate" holds sway - This has been the pattern for 200 years. What is complex about that? What is complex about Dan Fodio's Jihad - when he clearly and accurately spelled out his plans and impulses? Oh, but Noooooooooooooooo, the psychoanalysts amongst us have to read meanings into everything, dragging up ridiculous straw and bogey men like poverty and what not. There are no complex issues here.

[...I don't think that the latest fiasco in Nigeria is really about Islam...]

Oh really?

[...I suspect that all of the Christian businesses and churches targeted were predominantly Igbo...]

An entirely unfounded suspicion. When Muslims wreaked havoc in Plateau State, tell me; what hordes of Igbo minorities were they targeting? Are the Middle Belters resisting Islamic incursion today because they are Igbo?

[...Igbos are viewed as foreigners in Hausaland, and I'm sure that there are plenty of Hausa who resent their more prosperous and sucessful Igbo neighbors...]

While Yorubas and peoples from Plateau and Benue State are just welcome aint they? Come to think of it, I am sure that the entirely ridiculous settler / indigene issue which the Islamists have managed to raise cain with in Middle Belt states was also directed against Igbos wasnt it?

[...Islam is only a convenient pretext to destroy a perceived enemy. Even if all of the Igbos there were fervent Muslims, I'm sure another excuse to destroy could be produced...]

This again is nothing but further evidence of Islamist supremacy. The reason that even Yoruba and Igbo Muslims are accorded second class status in the North is *not* primarily because of their ethnic status, but because they hail from patrimonies that are not completely under the domination of Islam. To put it another way - Do you still think that Hausas would be killing Igbos if the people living alaIgbo was as Islamized as the North and under the sway of the caliphate? The same question goes for Yorubaland. The answer quite clearly is NO.

[...I think a better way to understand the situation is as an example of the standard sucessful minority hatred issues that abound in the world...]

Market dominant minority claptrap. Which I suppose is just crawling with reasons for why prosperous Lebanese and other North African businesses - again, by run by populations hailing from seriously Islamist societies arent being attacked by these mobs.

[...Islam itself isn't the problem...]

Yes. It. Is.

[...In our own Yorubaland, at least as far as I know, Christians and Muslims cohabitate peacefully...]

Well, you obviously dont know much in this regard I will tell you that. The introduction of Islam to Yorubaland was met with much skepticism and ridicule. The cohabitation of Muslims with Xtians in peace looks mighty dubious when examined in the light of the Alimi episode - an episode where Fulani expansionism received support from a large number of Yoruba Muslims. Furthermore, there have been clashes between Xtians and Muslims over the years in Yoruba land - over for instance, the introduction of the hijab in various South Western schools - and attempts of certain elements to have Sharia imposed in Lagos State. Only last year, there was a significant clash between Islamists and members of Egungun cults during an incident where the Islamists thought to prevent Egungun festivals by appealing to the superstititious, barbaric, primitive and uncivilized nature of the Yoruba traditional religion: *ahem*, *ahem*. Pointing to Yorubaland as evidence for peaceful cohabitation is missing the crucial factor: That the Yoruba and other groups successfully checkmated Islam, assimilated and redefined it as a subjugate African phenomenon - something which the Habe states were clearly incapable of doing vis-a-vis the Fulani. It is precisely because Islam has so to say, been neutered in Yorubaland and is more of a private religion than a public, cultural or civilizational phenomenon that the facade of peaceful cohabitation persists - a facade that Islamists are not unwilling to challenge. Witness again, the rampant murders, the murders in cold bold of Xtians in Osogbo during the crusade of the globe trotting German, Reinhard Bonkke. Islamists broke into several homes and demanded that the occupants recite "Allah Akbar" - and after they refused, slit their throats in front of their family. All this in the heartland of Yoruba culture that is Osogbo. Witness fiascos of the same stripe in Ilorin and other places...Oh no, Islam *is* the problem. Huntington was right in this particular regard. 1400 years of Islamic history shows that our problem is not just with radical or fringe elements. Islam has bloody borders and seeks to crush anything that is not in submission to it.

Ripp

[An entirely unfounded suspicion. When Muslims wreaked havoc in Plateau State, tell me; what hordes of Igbo minorities were they targeting? Are the Middle Belters resisting Islamic incursion today because they are Igbo?]
How is that relevant to the current rioting? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any mention of such rioting in these articles..

[While Yorubas and peoples from Plateau and Benue State are just welcome aint they? Come to think of it, I am sure that the entirely ridiculous settler / indigene issue which the Islamists have managed to raise cain with in Middle Belt states was also directed against Igbos wasnt it?]
Of course not. However, Igbos are by the far by far the largest migratory group in Northern Nigeria, and likely the most visible. I could mention many other groups as well, but that'd detract from the point.

[This again is nothing but further evidence of Islamist supremacy. The reason that even Yoruba and Igbo Muslims are accorded second class status in the North is *not* primarily because of their ethnic status, but because they hail from patrimonies that are not completely under the domination of Islam. To put it another way - Do you still think that Hausas would be killing Igbos if the people living alaIgbo was as Islamized as the North and under the sway of the caliphate? The same question goes for Yorubaland. The answer quite clearly is NO.]
I don't think the answer is as clear as you make it out to be.
It is too simplistic to say that it just Islam. Even if Igbos (and the other southern groups) were muslim, they'd still speak a different language, have different sounding names, have different customs and cultures, and be more prosperous. Certainly, it is within the realm of possibility for problems to still occur..

[Market dominant minority claptrap. Which I suppose is just crawling with reasons for why prosperous Lebanese and other North African businesses - again, by run by populations hailing from seriously Islamist societies arent being attacked by these mobs.]
First, Lebanon isn't very Islamist, in any sense of the word. Lebanese emigrants are known even less for their piety..
Second, foreigners operating businesses in Nigeria operate under a different set of rules. A northern Hausaman might feel superior to the heathen, but properous Igbo trader. He may view the Igbo as a people that his would have conquered if not for the British. To borrow from an Americanism, "Uppity Igbo" might express his disdain for the Igbo, or southerners in general. On the other hand, it is very unlikely that he will feel the same way about a businessman from Lebanon.
Anyway, I think it is market minority combined with just some good ol' fashioned anti-Igbo (or anti-southerner) sentiment.

You've listed some isolated incidents, but I don't think any reasonable person can deny the relative inter-faith harmony in Yorubaland.
You seem to claim that this is because Yoruba muslims somehow practice a "Yorubized" form of Islam.
I don't dispute that, but I also don't see why you persist in saying that Islam in inherently evil; why couldn't these softer forms become prevalent?

Jim

"I think a better way to understand the situation is as an example of the standard sucessful minority hatred issues that abound in the world (cf. Jews in the US and Europe, ethnic Chinese in the Phillipines, etc.)"

True in parts, false in others. The biggest threat to the Jewish community in the US is assimilation and intermarriage, no something I have heard any American Jew ascribe to persecution. As for a hated minority, surely the Saxons are the most despised tribe in Europe - perhaps for their successes.

dsquared

[As for a hated minority, surely the Saxons are the most despised tribe in Europe ]

A long way behind Gypsies, surely? We're also really not very keen on Albanian, Bosnian and Chechen Muslims over here in Europe and tend to massacre them whenever we think NATO isn't looking.

Frank McGahon

[We're also really not very keen on Albanian, Bosnian and Chechen Muslims over here in Europee and tend to massacre them whenever we think NATO isn't looking]

Speak for yourself!

"We" indeed. If you are going to conflate Russians in Chechnya or (mostly) Serbs in Bosnia and Kosovo with all Europeans you might as well say that it was "we" non-orthodox-christian-Europeans who had been massacred.

J.Cassian

"'We' indeed."

Indeed. It's just like saying "we're not very keen on Chams here in Asia" or "we're not very keen on the people of Dafur here in Africa".

Chuckles

[...How is that relevant to the current rioting? Correct me if I\'m wrong, but I don\'t see any mention of such rioting in these articles...]

The point is that the fact that Muslims have attacked these non-Igbo populations in the past undermines your suspicion that *all* businesses targeted were Igbo. Why should any person well acquianted with the facts have such a suspicion?

[...However, Igbos are by the far by far the largest migratory group in Northern Nigeria, and likely the most visible...]

Do you have any statistics for this? I seriously doubt that they are by far the largest migratory group in the North. Even if they were - how does this again, prove that the attacks were carried out against Igbos for ethnic reasons in the absence of any empirical evidence that they in fact were - and in the presence of lots of evidence that such attacks in the past have also affected large numbers of Yoruba and other migrants?
And besides; reports such as thus:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/34a/065.html give the lie to your claim that Igbos outnumber other migrant groups. Yoruba outnumber Igbos in Kano - as they have done for centuries; again, something any elementary historian of West Africa knows. The Sabon Garis of the North were not inhabited mainly by Igbos - giving the lie, again, to your claims of surpassing visibility.

[...I don\'t think the answer is as clear as you make it out to be...]

You might want to try taking off those filters of yours then.

[...It is too simplistic to say that it just Islam...]

Well, I\'ll just delve into some complex psychoanalysis and post-imperialist rhetoric then. What rubbish.

[...Even if Igbos (and the other southern groups) were muslim, they\'d still speak a different language, have different sounding names, have different customs and cultures, and be more prosperous...]

So? The fact is that you dont see Fulanis attacking Hausas today, do you? Because the Hausas have been successfully Islamized. An Islamized Igbo nation would have infinitely less problems with the North than the present situation. Islam is the keystone here.

[...Certainly, it is within the realm of possibility for problems to still occur...]

There are many things that are possible, but possibility doesnt grant a shard of credibility in debate. Furthermore, were I even to assume that under the scenarios that I posit, that problems would still occur, that is not proof that Islam isnt the problem in this case. It makes even less of a case when we have direct evidence that the aggressors claim that they are being motivated by Islam - and that we have a pattern of historical Islamic aggression in that particular region.

[...First, Lebanon isn\'t very Islamist, in any sense of the word...]

The \"very Islamist\" tag is your own invention. Yet, Lebanon is significantly more of a Muslim society than alaIgbo.

[...Lebanese emigrants are known even less for their piety...]

So? Are the rioters and the hisbah and assorted others known for their piety?

[...Second, foreigners operating businesses in Nigeria operate under a different set of rules. A northern Hausaman might feel superior to the heathen, but properous Igbo trader...]

This is just rubbish, since the same superiority you talk about is displayed towards Westerners who are just as heathen as the Igbo. And what is the basis of this display if not religion?

[...On the other hand, it is very unlikely that he will feel the same way about a businessman from Lebanon...]

And why not?

[...Anyway, I think it is market minority combined with just some good ol\' fashioned anti-Igbo (or anti-southerner) sentiment...]

Classic apologetics.

[...You\'ve listed some isolated incidents, but I don\'t think any reasonable person can deny the relative inter-faith harmony in Yorubaland.

[...You\'ve listed some isolated incidents, but I don\'t think any reasonable person can deny the relative inter-faith harmony in Yorubaland...]

What reasonable people will ask is that why is it always Muslims that are involved in this so called Isolated incidents? And how can cold blooded murder at the drop of a pin be stand side by side with your so called inter-faith harmony?
The truth of the matter is that these incidents are hardly isolated - they are recurrent, from time to time.

[...You seem to claim that this is because Yoruba muslims somehow practice a \"Yorubized\" form of Islam...]

I am saying that Islam does not have an advantage in Yoruba land.

[...I also don\'t see why you persist in saying that Islam in inherently evil...]

Fact check. Do you have a citation for this?

[...why couldn\'t these softer forms become prevalent...]

This is pie in the sky nonsense designed to distract from the real and present mayhem being caused by Islam globally by pointing to vague hopes of an Islamic reformation. And allowing so called moderates who refuse to speak up against carnage to cuddle their own egos by refusing to admit the general savageness of their co-religionists. Fact: Islam today is violent and murderous. It has bloody borders and seeks to subjugate - when your softer forms prevail, you can be sure that I will change my assessment.


Chuckles

Death toll rising:

http://odili.net/news/source/2006/feb/20/802.html

http://odili.net/news/source/2006/feb/20/32.html

[...A victim, Mr Joseph Tukwa watched helplessly as six of his children were burnt to ashes. Another family of five in another part of Maiduguri were also burnt to death in the disturbance which occurred last Saturday...]

[...Giving an account of the incident by a businessman and hotelier, Mr. Deji Taiwo...]

So much for the "attacks on Igbos theory"

So tell me: Is poverty responsible for this extreme reaction to events in faraway Europe? Is mere ethnic envy of market dominant minorities responsible? Or is what we are witnessing, the logical outcome of a social milieu created by a doctrine that preaches death, destruction or subjugation of all "others"? Is mere hooliganism responsible - or rather, is there a doctrine at work here that makes it favorable and convenient for such hooligans to thrive, multiply and escape unscathed?
Which is it?

Jim

"A long way behind Gypsies, surely?"

Not really. I heard this in Nuernberg, and the form of the word was Sachsen, but it's the same tribe, and you can be sure that while Gypsies get more than their share of grief, it's mostly because they are easy targets. Sachsen/Prussians are the ones who are despised. Come to think of it, the same goes for Britain and Ireland. People may work off their qi on the Gypsies, but the Saxons or the Saeson or the Sassanch are the real hate objects.

Back to the topic - if the problem is simply inter-ethnic, than why isn't there more of it in the South? Is everything just lovey-dovey between the Yoruba and the Igbo, and wouldn't smaller groups be easy pickings? So why doesn't this happen there? Why is it always the northern states we hear about when this kind of crap happens?

Chuckles

[...Is everything just lovey-dovey between the Yoruba and the Igbo, and wouldn\'t smaller groups be easy pickings?...]

This will be awarded my \"sensible statement of the day\" prize. Anyone the least bit familiar with Nigerian politics knows that no love is lost between Yoruba and Igbo. Visit any Igbo discussion groups on the web and they are pools of one form of Yoruba/Oduduwa bashing or the other - the hate speech coming from Igbos with regards to Yorubas is voluminous, and Yoruba ridicule for Igbo aspirations is not so hard to find...and yet: Yorubas manage to thrive fairly easily in the East and ditto for Igbos in the West. Where are the Yorubas killing Igbos over insults to Oduduwa or Awolowo? Only recently, one of the Ijaw rebel leaders called Awolowo a devil: Now, Awolowo is the Ataturk, the de Gaulle, the Kennedy, Lincoln, Jefferson and Washington of the Yoruba all rolled into one: Popularly claiming to be the only unified leader of the Yoruba since Oduduwa. Awolowo, in a sense, is the standard for Yoruba politics and public conduct: Yet, how many foreigners have the Yoruba killed despite assaults on his person? Furthermore; where are the Igbos killing Yoruba over insults to Ojukwu?

Are there no poor Yorubas or Igbos - or unemployed youths and hooligans amongst them? Arent the Igbos also market minorities deserving of envy in Yoruba land?

The problem here is quite clearly Islam.

Jim

"The problem here is quite clearly Islam."

And the way it licenses self-pity (We have been treated unjustly! And who hasn't?) and self-righteousness (Islam is the religion of peace; only those who want war oppose us.)and violence (fill in your own here.) Everyone is mad at the world for some reason or other, but other people have reliogions or value systems that keep them rather than encourage them to pick fights. This is a new devlopment in some systems - in America the whole concept of Manifest Destiny was based on a distorted rading of the Old Testament. Back when Communism was destined to spread acros the world, it was every Communst's duty to speed the day. But times have changed and nowadays this seems to be Islam's unique little thing.

Oh, and Chuckles, aside from the nasty tone of comment on the sites you cite, there is the angry tone on non-Yoruba and non-Igbo sites. Everyone complains that they are being Yorubized and Igboized.

Ripp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4738726.stm

Like I alluded to, the most significant components might be ethnic rather religious:

"The BBC's Sola Odunfa said when he tried to enter the city, he was confronted by a 200 armed men demanding proof that he was not Hausa."

Why is the retaliation limited to Igboland? I bet a lot of the churchs burned, property destroyed, and southerners slaughtered in Hausaland were Igbo.


[ Arent the Igbos also market minorities deserving of envy in Yoruba land? ]

Chuckles, is this really true? (no snarkiness intended, I'm genuinely curious.) Certainly there are many sucessful and prominent Igbos in Yorubaland, but I didn't realize that they have become economically dominant.

Chuckles

[...Why is the retaliation limited to Igboland? I bet a lot of the churchs burned, property destroyed, and southerners slaughtered in Hausaland were Igbo...]

This is just lousy thinking: Ergo, if retaliations are limited to Igbos, that means only Igbos were attacked? Errr - what exactly is that supposed to mean? I showed you clear evidence that the attacks in the North were carried out on a broad ethnic spectrum; the unifying factor being religion. Furthermore, Odunfa\'s experience as proof of some Igbocentric attacks in the North is just ridiculous: Has it occured to you that the reason they demanded from Odunfa whether he was Hausa or not is because being Hausa is synonymous with Islamic violence? Not due to actions people carry out in the name of *being Hausa* but due to actions people carry out in the name of *being Muslims*. It is much easier to deny being a Muslim, than to deny being Hausa - in situations such as Odunfa\'s: So, asking Odunfa if he is a Muslim is useless. Because for Hausas you see, the accent and the intonation of the English language gives you away. This is an elementary fact about Nigerian society - apart from the fact that he would need to explain exactly where he is from and give details about the place: Something a query about his being \"Muslim\" need not provoke.
But then again, there is more than enough evidence, from nonIgbos in the Middle Belt, from Yorubas and from South-Southerners that they were also attacked, in great proportions in this crises. This is direct empirical evidence that need not be rationalized pro or con - so how come you are having a hard time accepting it?

[...Chuckles, is this really true? (no snarkiness intended, I\'m genuinely curious.) Certainly there are many sucessful and prominent Igbos in Yorubaland, but I didn\'t realize that they have become economically dominant...]

Which of course beside the point: Since the dominance you speak of with regards to the Igbos in the North is hardly an encompassing economic dominance: The richest people in the North are not Igbos: And Igbos dont control the Agricultural sector of the North; which again, makes up anywhere from 20% to 40% of Nigeria\'s GDP - I dont have exact figures on hand. The issue is whether Igbos in Yorubaland are as successful in Yorubaland as they are in the North to provoke the envy and jealousy which you claim motivates these killings. And the answer is; Yes: The Igbos in Yorubaland, are perhaps, even more successful than the Igbos in the North. So, where is the market envy; the market jealousy and all the other garbage that people usually bring up as excuses for Islamic rampage? How come Yorubas arent killing Igbos?

Chuckles

BTW, Ripp, you might want to put a lid on the dishonesty there. From the very own link you supplied come from the following juicy quotes:

[...Groups of armed youths rampaged through the city attacking Muslims, in apparent retaliation for the deaths of Christians in riots in the north...]

[...Eyewitnesses spoke of streets \"littered with bodies\" as thousands of Muslims were said to be fleeing the city.

Danish cartoon protests in the north led to sectarian clashes which have seen dozens of deaths in four cities.

On Wednesday, groups of Christian Ibo men wielding clubs and machetes rampaged through Onitsha for a second day attacking any members of the Muslim Hausa community they could find, according to witnesses...]

In the very first paragraphs of the article, the Beeb, no bastion of conservative thought points out in no uncertain terms that the retaliations were for Xtian deaths, it speaks of Muslim bodies, not Hausa bodies and it speaks of Xtian Igbos and Muslim Hausas - nitpicking that segment about Odunfa and trying to twist that to make an ethnic case is simply dishonest - Not that it makes the case anyway; as I have already shown above. This is no ethnic matter: The deciding factor here is religion.

Besides - you seem to forget that even the historical roots of Igbo/Hausa tension have their roots in religion. The depths of dishonesty to which you people will sink!

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