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December 29, 2004

Comments

Mrs Tilton

It's an individual rather than a group story, but the current pope has *already* beatified Giovanni Mastai-Ferretti, AKA Pius IX, who removed a Jewish boy from his family and had him raised a Roman Catholic.

And Mastai-Ferretti hadn't even the excuse of saving the boy, one Edgardo Mortara, from nazis. The Mortaras employed a catholic housemaid. At one point Edgardo fell ill, and she feared he would die. So she baptised him, the better that his wee reprobate soul not burn in hell should he die unredeemed. He recovered, though. Unfortunately for the Mortaras, they lived in Bologna, then part of the Papal States. Under papal law, Jews were forbidden to raise catholic children (even if the children in question were their own). Having been baptised, Edgardo was accounted a Christian. So the police took the boy away from his parents and sent him to a catholic religious school. In spite of world-wide protests, Mastai-Ferretti refused to free Edgardo. Instead, he took him on as his protegé; the boy eventually became a priest and enjoyed a long, distinguished career in the church.

Defenders of Pius will doubtless point out that the adult Mortara thought the pope had done the right thing, and wrote a statement that was later used in support of Pius's beatification. But it's not surprising that Mortara thought this way. After all, he was only six when taken from his parents, and was subjected to a thorough 'reeducation'.

There's a good, concise history of the Mortara affair on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara

So you see, there is sound papal precedent for Pius XII's attempt to keep Jewish children from being returned to their families. I would note in passing that the transfer of children from one group to another for the purpose of 'converting' them into members of the second group is part of the generally accepted definition of genocide.

captainblak

It's such a shame what these two proselytising religions (islam and christianity) have done to the world.

eoin

Anerica is still at it's anti-Catholic prejudices, it's ur-hatreds, even after hundreds of years. When will it stop?

Mrs Tilton

Neither Abiola nor I is in America, Eoin a mhic. But I'd be highly interested (and I daresay Abiola would as well) to hear you attempt to defend the actions of Piuses IX and XII described above. On second thought, don't bother. It is doubtless easier to counter the facts by bleating on about 'prejudice'.

Abiola Lapite

"Anerica is still at it's anti-Catholic prejudices, it's ur-hatreds, even after hundreds of years. When will it stop?"

Tut, tut. What did I say at the end of the post? I repeat:

[I can already guess the first two arguments they'll deploy: the "at least they saved the children" line, and/or "this is an attack on the church by the forces of evil", a.k.a "circle the wagons."]

And there you go doing the very thing I said would happen ...

eoin

The post was prejudiced because it attacked the leader of a church which had nothing to do with Naziism. I have never seen anybody make a link between protestantism and Naziism, even that link is glaringly obvious to me. The Catholic states - even when fascist - were safe for Jews, Italy had to be invaded before the Naziis could deport it's Jewish population, Pius was considered a hero ( by Jewish organisations, and Israels leaders ) after the war for saving Jews in the Vatican, Spain was safe for Jews. And so on. Meanwhile the Nazi's obliteration of the Catholic Church in Poland is written out of history, as is the total acquisence of Germany's protestant churches: opposition from the pulpits was almost entirely Catholic, and opposition to Naziism stronger in the Catholic South. Racial laws are protestant phenomona, most racist outfits in the US have their origins in the UK - the Bob Jones univerity is as Anti-Katholic as it is anti-Black. One of its former students is the supremeicist leader of the DUP in Northern Ireland.

I could go on with other examples, but let me explain why this anti-catholicism is gathering strength now in the English Speaking world: Hispanic immigration into the US.

Mrs. Tilton is from the UK. Quelle surprise. All Anglo cultures are saturated with Anti-Catholicism. The obsession with child abuse in Catholic schools is an artifact of that, particularly in the UK where elite protestant schools are known ( anecdotally) to be bastions of homosexuality, and pederasty. That is considered "normal" of course, and one doubts whether there will be a Magdellan Laundries type movie on the subject or child abuse as Eton, or whether - if there was - Protestantism would be blamed. ( I am pretty certain that school abuse is far greater in the UK, all of my evidence is anecdotal, of course, but it has to be since that kind of thing is known about, but not reported in the United Kingdom).

By the way Abiola, writing something prejudiced about Catholicism and then preempting criticism about it by saying your opponents will come back with "this is an attack on the church by the forces of evil" is as valid an argument as attacking Judaism and attempting to ward off criticism by saying your opponents are going to say:

"this is an attack on the Jews by the forces of evil". Yes, they may, and you would.

You would not accept that argument from Anti-semites. I am calling you on your prejudice, regardless.

Abiola Lapite

"The post was prejudiced because it attacked the leader of a church which had nothing to do with Naziism."

You blindly assert this without providing any evidence whatsoever. Who signed the Concordat with Hitler's Reich? Which Pope insisted that no black troops be used in the liberation of Rome, for fear that they'd rape Italian women? Which Pope is now revealed to have kept Jewish children from being returned to their parents? What a lot of crap.

"I have never seen anybody make a link between protestantism and Naziism, even that link is glaringly obvious to me."

You obviously haven't read widely if you aren't aware of the German Christians. That German protestants supported Hitler is news to absolutely no one, but it in no way absolves Pius XII of his deeds, nor does it explain why John Paul II should seek to canonize the man. "Tu quoque" is a logical fallacy.

"Mrs. Tilton is from the UK. Quelle surprise."

This is a cheap bit of ad hominem, and I strongly suggest you withdraw it if you wish to keep contributing here.

"The obsession with child abuse in Catholic schools is an artifact of that, particularly in the UK where elite protestant schools are known ( anecdotally) to be bastions of homosexuality, and pederasty. That is considered "normal" of course, and one doubts whether there will be a Magdellan Laundries type movie on the subject or child abuse as Eton, or whether - if there was - Protestantism would be blamed."

Which gets the Catholic Church off the hook for covering for pederasts, right? And I also suppose that the Magdalene laundry abuses therefore never happened, right? What insulting nonsense!

"By the way Abiola, writing something prejudiced about Catholicism"

A cheap and easy substitute for actual thinking on your part. Are you trying to say that the Catholic church's actions in this case were right? Please answer yes or no, rather than dodging the question.

" "this is an attack on the Jews by the forces of evil". Yes, they may, and you would.

You would not accept that argument from Anti-semites. I am calling you on your prejudice, regardless."

Bullshit. If Jews were ever to keep children who'd been initiated into Judaism from returning to their Christian parents, you can be damn sure I'd condemn it outright. Heck, I condemned German Jews for seeking to restrict the immigration of Russians, a far less grave offense than stealing people's children.

Eoin, in your comments on here you've violated several of the guidelines I posted recently on what constitutes acceptable commentary around these parts. Either start making actual *reasoned* arguments or you'll have to find somewhere else to make your contributions. I'm not going to waste my day wading through illogical, substance-free ad hominems that amount to dodging the issues.

eoin

I will not be commentating here again I suppose, since the definitions of logical fallacies, is ( by necessity) your own. I think my arguments are reasonable.

So this will be my last comment, as I prefer not to be banned from anywhere.

To answer some of the issues. Why is Mrs. Tilton's country not relevant? I went on to say that the English speaking world is saturated with anti-Catholicism. This prejudice originates from England. ( also, as an aside I wonder why anti-Catholicism is so acceptable from English "liberals", given their history. It would be as anti-semeticism was acceptable to German liberals ).

Most of the arguments you were upset about were not attacks on you, but on the prevalent anti-Catholicism in English speaking world, to which most people are subject too.

"And I also suppose that the Magdalene laundry abuses therefore never happened, right? What insulting nonsense!"

Did say the Magdalene abuses never happened?

Nope. I said that much worse happens in the UK but is not covered by the English media, and is considered "normal", or if it were discovered would not be considered an artifact of Protestantism, but isolated incidents.

As for my feelings on the actual Catholic churches response to the abuse: appalling of course. In fact they are getting away with aboslute theft in Ireland where the State has agreed to pay for their damages. However I am not sure that Catholicism is causal of child abuse. Read Philip Jenkins book "New Anti-catholicism : Last Acceptable Prejudice"

Abiola Lapite

"I will not be commentating here again I suppose, since the definitions of logical fallacies, is ( by necessity) your own."

What nonsense. Perhaps you ought to take a look at any decent textbook on syllogistic logic sometime; even Aristotle recognized your ad hominems as nonsensical.

If you don't want to stick to reasonable argument, that's your problem, but don't make yourself out to be some sort of martyr on here.

"I think my arguments are reasonable."

What constitutes rational argument isn't something we each get to decide for ourselves, and propositional logic isn't a matter of subjective opinion. "Tu quoque" and "argumentum ad hominem" are unacceptable amongst thinking people, and that is all your arguments amount to.

"Why is Mrs. Tilton's country not relevant? I went on to say that the English speaking world is saturated with anti-Catholicism. This prejudice originates from England."

Let me translate your "argument" into terms you might find easier to appreciate: let us suppose you condemn some Unionist misdeed, and then some Ulster Protestant comes along and dismisses the content of your argument by saying "The Irish-Catholic world is saturated with anti-Protestantism. This prejudice originates from Ireland." Or how about if a German says he doesn't like Israel's separation fence, and someone comes along and says "The German-speaking world is saturated with antisemitism. Germans killed Jews during world War 2, therefore, you're a Nazi!" Would you consider these worthwhile arguments? What you wrote was nothing more than a cheap slur.

"Most of the arguments you were upset about were not attacks on you, but on the prevalent anti-Catholicism in English speaking world, to which most people are subject too."

Oh really? Who said the following?

"By the way Abiola, writing something prejudiced about Catholicism and then preempting criticism about it by saying your opponents will come back with "this is an attack on the church by the forces of evil" is as valid an argument as attacking Judaism and attempting to ward off criticism by saying your opponents are going to say:"

That babble about "writing something prejudiced" certainly reads like an unfounded smear to me.

"However I am not sure that Catholicism is causal of child abuse."

And no one is saying it is. What is at issue is that there's ever more evidence available revealing that Pius XII was a racist and an antisemite, and yet John Paul II remains insistent on canonizing him. This latest revelation comes from the diaries of another future Pope, and for you to start throwing accusations of prejudice at us for noting it is both offensive and a total cop-out. That the English press has or has not covered this, that or other has absolutely no bearing whatsover on the fact that Pope John Paul II wants to make a saint of a morally foul individual.

andy

What do you think about the RCC PR campaign that says that we cannot judge Pius XII by the standards of our day and location? He was just doing what was considered morally right in that time and place.

From the Wikipedia,

"Monsignor Carlo Liberati, the church official who advanced Pius IX's beatification, said Pius should not be judged by the Mortara case: "In the process of beatification, this wasn't considered a problem because it was a habit of the times" to take baptised Jews and raise them as Catholics. "We can't look at the church with the eyes of the year 2000, with all of the religious liberty that we have now," Liberati said."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara

Abiola Lapite

"What do you think about the RCC PR campaign that says that we cannot judge Pius XII by the standards of our day and location? He was just doing what was considered morally right in that time and place."

My response is that I thought the Catholic Church didn't go in for moral relativism ...

Mrs Tilton

Eoin: Mrs. Tilton is from the UK. Quelle surprise.

Abiola: This is a cheap bit of ad hominem, and I strongly suggest you withdraw it if you wish to keep contributing here.

It might be a cheap bit of ad hominem, but it is also wrong. Given Eoin's forename, it's perhaps not unreasonable to have expected him to have twigged from the Gaelic vocative, but oh well, it seems he didn't. As Beckett remarked to Pinget when asked was he English: 'au contraire'. Is Éireannach mé, me aul' china.

Its inaccuracy, of course, doesn't make Eoin's slur against the British any less offensive. Some of my best friends, after all, are Saxon dogs.

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