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November 29, 2004

Comments

Frank McGahon

precisely the same individuals who are out there buying all that "blacks on blondes" interracial porn - there just aren't enough black men out there for them to constitute the majority of the audience for this material

Oh, I think that it's almost certainly the case that this audience is overwhelmingly white (and male, naturally) and, although I wouldn't peg all of them as bigots there has to be a substantial overlap with the sort of people hyperventilating - the giveaway is that they "read" more "kink" into this than is there.

razib

man, the link to the pic has bandwidth limit exceeded!!! i guess i'll have to look on kazaa....

there are still a lot of people in America who can't stand the idea of a white woman jumping naked into the arms of a black man

yes, they are called losers :) but you know, tony dungee got pissed about it too, and i think he said it was 'racially insensitive' or something. don't know, like i've said before my recent trips to the american south indicate a huge about of black-white (both gender combinations) relationships in the younger demographics (or at least enough that everyone must know someone involved in one).

as for blacks on blondes, i had a roommate who had all those movies ripped on to CD-ROM. he was white of course, i assume all the guys watching those movies must be non-black.

razib

ok, i just needed to copy & paste the URL directly. now i can sleep....

Abiola Lapite

"yes, they are called losers :)"

And there are quite a lot of them out there too; talk about penis envy ...

"tony dungee got pissed about it too, and i think he said it was 'racially insensitive' or something."

He was worrying about it playing into stereotypes about black men. I can't really take his complaint seriously though.

"had a roommate who had all those movies ripped on to CD-ROM. he was white of course, i assume all the guys watching those movies must be non-black."

Yeah, I just don't see too many black men thrilling to the sight of themselves being portrayed as uneducated hoodlums and rapists, which seems to be the main theme of said material.

I actually once confirmed at a place I was working that all the viewers of interracial porn in the office were (middle-aged and older) white men: the place had a Squid proxy setup, and all the machines had static IP addresses, so it was easy to track who'd been looking at what. The incriminated parties were high-ranking types, so the whole business was quietly dropped, but I still found it fascinating that such obsessions could be running through the minds of people who'd never given the slightest hint that they cared about that sort of thing.

Abiola Lapite

By the way, I wouldn't be so sure that Southern attitudes towards interracial dating are as wonderful as all that. Here's what one survey has to say:
regional differences on racial attitudes are shrinking, except on the issue of interracial dating where six-in-ten southern whites feel it is appropriate (61% compared with 79% of whites in other regions). In other words, 4 in 10 white Southerners will admit to thinking it wrong: from what we know of people's revealed preferences, it's a certainty that the percentage who feel that way is actually much higher. Things might be different amongst the younger set, but I think it's still safe to say that attitudes are more open in the North, even if interracial couples aren't openly harrassed down South nowadays.

Frank McGahon

I just don't see too many black men thrilling to the sight of themselves being portrayed as uneducated hoodlums..

Yeah, that's why gangsta rap is so unpopular among African-American males, oh wait :-)

Brian

the real mystery is why any woman would want to give herself to that ass Terrell Owens rather than someone with an ounce of class.

Abiola Lapite

"Yeah, that's why gangsta rap is so unpopular among African-American males, oh wait :-)"

There's a crucial difference: gangsta-rap and its admirers view themselves as badasses who are naturally desired by women; it's outsiders who view gangsta-rap in a bad light, not those who like the musical form. Most interracial porn, by contrast, portrays black men as lust-crazed predators and gibbering idiots in the manner of Stepin Fetchit.

"the real mystery is why any woman would want to give herself to that ass Terrell Owens rather than someone with an ounce of class."

Nicolette Sheridan isn't exactly the bees knees herself nowadays - she's getting a bit long in the tooth.

Temporary

Heidi Klum and Seal?
God! Thats a devastating loss to the white community. :)

On the other note - I suspect we would find LESS Black Male / Asian Female InterRacial Porn than Black/White. Any reason for this?
Scarcity? Smaller Market? For I gather that some Asian Females are not exactly averse to throwing themselves into the arms of big black men either.

Black/Asian IR Marriage Stats are impressive; given the circumstances.

j

"out there buying all that "blacks on blondes" interracial porn - there just aren't enough black men out there for them to constitute the majority of the audience for this material"

Abiola, the range of your intellectual pursuits knows no bounds but isn't this a waste of time for someone who was going to become a great man?

Frank McGahon

I suspect we would find LESS Black Male / Asian Female InterRacial Porn than Black/White

Actually your suspicion isn't entirely correct. Many of the interracial series feature asian women too. White women outnumber asian women in the industry so you would expect there to be more porn of any type with white women, although asian women are probably overrepresented proportionally speaking compared to white women.

Temporary

Thanks Frank, for the expert knowledge you have brought to bear on these weighty matters. *Wink, Wink*

On a more serious note; I EBSCOed "Pornography" and "Race" and came up with 2 interesting articles.

1.
Monk-Turner, Elizabeth
Purcell, H. Christine
Gender Issues, Spring99, Vol. 17 Issue 2, p58, 10p
http://search.epnet.com/login.aspx?direct=true&AuthType=cookie,ip,url,uid&db=aph&an=2339995

Abstract:

[... We examine the treatment of female characters in videocassette pornography. Using a systematic sample, we analyze 209 vignettes in 40 x- to xxx- rated videos commercially available from a national chain in the local market. We found that most videos had sexually violent or dehumanizing/degrading themes; however, a significant number also had a theme of intimacy. As expected, we found little evidence (one case) of extreme sexual deviance. Extreme sexual deviance was the kind of sexual violence the 1986 Commission on Pornography assumed was commonly available in pornography today. We also examined how the race of the actor shapes pornographic violence. As hypothesized, we found that black women experienced more violence from both white and black men than was the case for white women. White women, in fact, experienced least violence when paired with a black man. Our work replicates that of others in that we found few intimacy themes in material where black actors were present...]

Also interesting is the following snip:

[...Given the prevalence of racist themes in pornographic material today (Hoch, 1979; MacKinnon and Dworkin, 1988; Mayall and Russell, 1993), we expect both white and black men to display more violence to black than white women. Further, we do not expect black women or men to be proportionally represented in neutral pornographic material. Rather, we expect to replicate Cowan and Campbell's (1994) finding that black actors demonstrate less intimacy in pornographic material than do their white counterparts.
...]

And this:

[...We found that it makes a difference what the racial composition of actors in a vignette is and whether or not violence occurs (x2 = 39.21 [.01]). When a white man was paired with a black female, there was more violence (in 33% of the vignettes) than when a black man was with a white woman (8% of vignettes). Interestingly, there was no difference in the amount of violence between a white man and white woman compared to a black man and black woman (12% each of vignettes). When multiple white men were in a vignette, there was always violence when paired with a black female; however, when paired with a white female, violence rarely occurred (15% of vignettes). There was always violence when a white male actor was paired with a Hispanic female; the opposite held (no violence in yignettes) when he was paired with an Asian female. None of the vignettes reviewed contained scenes with a sole black male actor and a sole Hispanic or Asian female. In our revised racial composition, the relationship between violence and race held (x.2 = 8.95 [.06]). We found that when the actors consisted of a multiple white cast there was less violence (17% of vignettes) than when the multiple cast was of mixed races (38% of all vignettes) (see Table 3)...]

Note:

[...We find sexism and racism evident in the pornographic material analyzed. Women continue to be portrayed as sexual objects ever available to perform sexual acts. Women are often cast as the submissive party in these relationships. Black women are the object of more sexual violence from either black or white men. White women suffer the least sexual violence when paired with a black man. Black actors lack intimacy in pornographic material--a theme largely reserved for white pornographic actors...]

The second article:

2.
Cowan, Gloria
Campbell, Robin R.
Psychology of Women Quarterly; Sep94, Vol. 18 Issue 3, p323, 16p, 2 charts

http://search.epnet.com/login.aspx?direct=true&AuthType=cookie,ip,url,uid&db=aph&an=9409213813

This article runs pretty much along the same lines. I find however, that there is marked absence of a treatment of Asian women in Both articles.
It is a Black-White discussive paradigm.
Are Asians suffering from Ellisonian invisibility?
Or do they just suck at acting Porno.

While there are good number of works dealing with Pornography and Race, there is a dearth of studies which have undertaken to find proportional representations by race, or at least in the area of consumption - which IR Porno products are more viable.
Do the Blacks or Blondes sell more? Vs the Whites on Blacks or Blacks on Asians etc.

I guess I'll just have to take Frank's word for it.

*Snicker*

Abiola Lapite

I fail to see how research dating to the early 1990s has much relevance to the pornography that's available today. This is a genre that's a lot more subject to volatility than most, and one doesn't need any fancy research to confirm for oneself that most of the interracial porn out there nowadays is of the "Little White Slave Girls", "My Wife Likes it Black" or "White Sluts, Black Nuts" variety (all names of actual porn series). It doesn't take rocket science to see that tenderness has zilch to do with that sort of material, or even what black men might fantasize about. The popularity of black male-white female porn on online filesharing sites, even Danish and German ones, can't be attributed to black male (or any female) demand either.

Frank McGahon

I'd take this "study" with a sackful of salt - you'll find that there is a pretty broad definition of what constitutes "violence". In any case, what they said was "none of the vignettes reviewed contained scenes with a sole black male actor and a sole Hispanic or Asian female". That just means they didn't review any, not that none exist.

You don't have to take my word for it, go to any of the online porn stores, browse the interracial section and look at the boxcovers - many of them feature asian women. Heck there are even specific series with this theme.

Frank McGahon

FWIW: A quick cursory search has unearthed a veritable cornucopia of series with the black male/asian female theme with titles like "black pearls", "asian brotha lovers", etc.. The thing about porn is that pretty much every taste gets catered for, it would be foolish to assume, a priori, that certain combinations aren't available, although asian males in porn, ai no corrida notwithstanding, are notable by their absence.

Frank McGahon

I should say..in American porn. Japanese porn obviously features asian males.

Abiola Lapite

"I should say..in American porn. Japanese porn obviously features asian males."

One can tell a lot about a society by the porn that's popular in it.

Frank McGahon

Which is a scary thought when you think of Japan!

Temporary

1. @Abiola: 1999 isn't the early 90s.

2. @Frank: Whats the market for Black Male / Asian Female porn? The point stays the same. I suspect that we will find LESS Black Male / Asian Female InterRacial Porn than Black/White. Period. Thats the point that was made and I see no reason why going to browse the shelves in a store should disabuse me of this notion. I didnt say there were less Asians in IR porn by way of proportion or otherwise.
But I wager, that even the Porn Store adventure would confirm my point.
There IS less Black/Asian porn than Black/White.

Abiola Lapite

"1. @Abiola: 1999 isn't the early 90s."

It's still 5 years ago, and in a fast-changing business. Besides, look at the following dates:
(Hoch, 1979; MacKinnon and Dworkin, 1988; Mayall and Russell, 1993) ... Cowan and Campbell (1994)Hardly current, is it?

Danny

I saw this documentary about the "Rat Pack" in which they said that Sammy Davis Jr. was engaged to a white woman, but this was hushed up before the 1960 election, in order not to harm Kennedy's chances (Sinatra was associated with the Kennedy campaign). What struck me as strange about this story was not the racism - that's pretty common everywhere - but the fact that the woman in question, like Heidi Klum now, was not american. Why on earth would the american public feel offended by a non-american woman pairing with a black man? Why should they choose to identify with a non-american woman, even if she is white?

This clues me in that nationalism for americans is not an important concept. Nationalism in America is abstract, has to do with the constitution and notions of rights, not with a more 'essentialist' identity as is common in most countries. Since on top of that Americans are not that aware of the rest of the world, what comes most naturally to them is to divide people according to races, since to them that is the most important type of difference between people, not according to nationality as is common in most of the world. THe fact that america is an immigration target, foreigners are precieved as potential americans, and a white foreigner is almost the same as a white american.

Temporary

@ Abiola -

The references you pointed out only served as a basis for a hypothesis. The researchers theorized "more violence etc etc etc" in 1999 because past data indicated that trend. The paper isnt merely a review of the references. Did the researchers not carry out their own experiments? Yes, 1999 is 5 years ago - but their results are consistent with 1979 themes.
Doesnt sound like a fast changing business now, does it?

Anyhow - I put those 2 papers up to show that while there is data showing whatever those 2 papers purport to show (violence, racism etc), I find no data (and I cannot reasonably infer) that Franks position is born out.

There is LESS Black Male/Asian Female pornography.

Moi ---> [...On the other note - I suspect we would find LESS Black Male / Asian Female InterRacial Porn than Black/White. Any reason for this?
Scarcity? Smaller Market? For I gather that some Asian Females are not exactly averse to throwing themselves into the arms of big black men either...]

Frank ---> [...Actually your suspicion isn't entirely correct. Many of the interracial series feature asian women too. White women outnumber asian women in the industry so you would expect there to be more porn of any type with white women, although asian women are probably overrepresented proportionally speaking compared to white women...]

Frank McGahon

Temporary: I merely make the uncontroversial and easily verifiable (as I have shown) claim that there is such a thing as black male/asian female porn. Nowhere did I claim that this was *more* popular than black male/white female. You seemed to assume from your first statement that this was some sort of rarity and used this "fact" to build a hypothesis about why this supposedly contrasted with the pattern of black male/asian female relationships in the real world. My point was that your apparent starting assumption was incorrect.

Now, the papers you quote do nothing one way or another to bolster your original claim as they specifically mention that they didn't review such a scene, not that no such scenes exist. The tendentious language in the paper suggests to me that this is a Dworkin-like bait and switch which starts from an a priori position that porn is characterised by violence and exploitation by definition. That said, it doesn't appear to claim that the sample reviewed was intended to provide a breakdown of themes or pairings (then) currently popular in porn

captainblak

Such a shame such a shame!
This thread has garnered more comments than many other deeper ones!
But thanks for putting that site up...there's a ton of goodies on that site!

Temporary

@Frank:

1. My purpose in putting up the post was clear. While there is data investigating many aspects of Porn, I find no data saying my suspicions were incorrect.

2. I suspected that there is LESS Black Male/Asian Female porn. I wanted to know why. I asked questions to that effect.

3. You opined that you thought my suspicions were probably incorrect.

4. I simply reposted to confirm that my suspicions are probably correct. There is in fact LESS and the questions are unanswered, which again, is not a problem.

etc etc etc.

Look Frank - Can you Honestly say that there is an equal amount or more Black Male / Asian Female IR Porn than Black Male / White Female porn? I dont think so! There just isnt.

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