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May 30, 2005

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William

It was a mistake to have a referendum in the first place. They only get abused for all the wrong political reasons, i.e. Chirac's growing unpopularity. If you have elected representatives, that means you give them the power to decide on these matters. In countries that do not have a constitutional tradition mixing representation and referenda, this results in a mess, as we see here.

I will not discard the European Constitution, simply because of the heavy criticism (I wonder if the critics also bothered to read it). Up until I now, I have not read it, so I will defer from stating an opinion (something I would advise to others). I do know that it replaces a number of consisting treaties, so it can't be all that bad.

As a student of law, I know that legalese is difficult to understand. Legal texts should be more transparent, undoubtedly. But that does not make for a bad constitution (on its own).

dearieme

Constitutions, of all documents, should be written for the layman not the lawyer. The US Constitution succeeds brilliantly at this. One advantage is that any reader can see when the Supreme Court applies the Constitution and when it ignores it and simply applies the whims of the Justices. Handy, that.

Jim

"I will not discard the European Constitution, simply because of the heavy criticism (I wonder if the critics also bothered to read it). Up until I now, I have not read it, so I will defer from stating an opinion (something I would advise to others). I do know that it replaces a number of consisting treaties, so it can't be all that bad."

You do not have to read a constitution with that many articles to know there are structural problems with it. You really don't need to know anything more about it. Several US states have the same kind laundry list constitutions and they are embarrassments.

And dearieme is right in pointing out that a basic law needs ot be rewritten in layman's language or else it is not really democratic. Legalese is acceptable as a technical jargon for laws that are technical in nature, but a constituiton is a political document and it has to be open and available to the general public. Legalese by itself does in fact make for a bad constitution, unless the standard of legitimacy is something other than having us common folk knowing how their government is set up.

Abiola Lapite

Let me second what both Dearieme and Jim have said. For an example of a constitution done (almost) right, might I humbly suggest taking a look at the following document?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html

If I have any reservations with the example above, it is that the authors failed to institute sufficiently stringent safeguards in favor of private property and against federal power-grabbing - which only goes to show how hard it is to forsee what wilful misinterpretations may yet spring from even the most limpid language. With a constitution as prolix and chock-full of addled legalese as the one our masters in Brussels would have forced down our throats, there's hardly any mischief under the sun that wouldn't be possible.

Delmore Macnamara

Does anyone know if the flaw Goedel believed he had found in the US constitution really was a flaw, & if so what it was?

dearieme

dELMORE: NO PROPER WAY OF KEEPING THE jUSTICES TO THEIR OATHS?

Jim

"If I have any reservations with the example above, it is that the authors failed to institute sufficiently stringent safeguards in favor of private property and against federal power-grabbing..."

Those are examples of the two main flaws in the EU Constitution. A constitution should lay out procedures for governing rather than fossilize policies. Of course at some point a policy becomes procedural if it is locked into place, but there is a functional difference. Sanctitu fo private property is an example of a constitutional principle that can be seen as a policy matter. Anyway, it's crucial to individual rights, and that is a procedural matter.

The second big problem has to do with limiting the power of government. Federal power-grabbing is a big problem here in the US even with safeguards in place; how much more of a problem would it be with none in place? Voters on with the full right-wing to left-wing spectrum of reasons to vote no all said they thought the EU Constituiton was too undemocratic. No one can quibble with that. This constituiton provids for a weak legislature, and a weak judiciary and allows for a tyrannical executicve branch in the form of an almost completely unaccountable federal bureacracy.

Ivan's concern about referenda is well-placed., but they have their place. many states in the US provide forreferenda to be part of genenral elections, and it can be a useful option. It's a balancing act really, because referenda are a very blunt instrument for making policy, but sometimes destruction and chaos are better than a corrupt system.

Abiola Lapite

Speaking of separation of powers and so forth, some people might find the following two links interesting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4603883.stm
http://etienne.chouard.free.fr/Europe/

It appears that French opposition to the constitution wasn't as alien to the "Anglo-Saxon" mind as the papers make out. Many of Etienne Chouard's objections seem eminently sensible to me.

Andrew

Funny how Etienne Chouard's website has a translation in Esperanto but not in English! I'll make do with Google which has translated "professeur de droit" into "professor of right"...

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